Over at DovBear there seems to be a new team member named Lurker. Now, I always knew that DovBear is a heretic, but his logic is generally sound so I enjoy reading him. This Lurker guy on the other hand...
In his recent post, The origins of Hanukkah, he tries to argue that Hanukkah originates in the Roman holiday Saturnalia. His proof is from the Talmud in Avodah Zara that tells us that Adam mourned when he saw the days getting shorter and then celebrated after he realized that they were growing longer again.
The Rabbi's in the Talmud were fools/liars/ideologues with their head buried in the sand. They thought that Hanukkah was established to celebrate the war of the Maccabees (an event that happened a few generations before their time) when it was really established to celebrate Saturnalia (something that was still going on during their time).
How do we know that this is false? Because the brilliant/holy/enlightened Rabbis had an infallible tradition going all the way back to the creation of the Earth. Their tradition is that God created this man and named him Adam. He is the one who really established the roots from which all pagan holidays stem.
Now hold on. If you trust the Rabbis of the Talmud to tell us what Adam did, or even that there was an Adam at all, why on earth would you not trust them to tell you the origin of a holiday that is well collaborated by other historical sources?
This is a perfect example of how smart Jewish minds, that are able to split an atom, are able to come up with the most twisted and distorted logic to justify what their Yetzer Hara wants justified.
Similar twisted thinking brings our government here in Israel to racially cleanse Jews from Gaza while sending food, money, fuel etc to terrorist in the same Gaza.
Here is something to lighten up the mood now that I am done placing blame for all of world Jewery's problems.
Posts
Just wanted to mention that I found your blog by way of Lurker's post (cross-posted at the Muqata), and am glad I did so. I enjoyed (is that the right word? Well, "appreciate", at any rate) this and your earlier posts, and look forward to reading future ones.
ReplyDeleteShalom Maoz and Jehoshaphat: I respectfully suggest you look at Lurker's comments over at my blog, where he addresses your concerns.
ReplyDeleteI personally reviewed the post with Lurker prior to its posting -- he wasn't even michadesh most of it. R' Menachem Leibtag states almost 100% of it, as does R' Uri Sharki in a shiur he gave last week in Yerushalayim. The link to the shiur is in the comment section on my blog and DovBear.
If you read Lurker's post, he is not critizing Chazal at all, and your reading of it is rather faulty to say the least.
The gemara in Avoda Zara VERY clearly states the following: . Adam HaRishon established an eight-day holiday (two, in fact) to be observed at the time of the Solstice, in celebration of the restoration of light. Furthermore, it tells us, these were the very holidays that eventually became known as the Greco-Roman festivals of Saturnalia and Kalanda.
It doesn't take a huge leap of understanding to determine that the Gemara is saying that the holiday we now know as Hanukah actually existed long before the Maccabees, for many centuries, as a Winter Solstice festival – the same Winter Solstice festival that was celebrated by the Greeks and Romans as Saturnalia.
This shouldn't be such a hard concept to grasp. According to the RMBN, the Jews in the desert were instructed to bring korbanot, because that sort of worship was familiar to people at the time (even if it was all idolatrous). Therefore, it makes alot of sense that the tremendous miracle of Chanuka -- the victory over the huge Greek army by a tiny Jewish rouge band of maccabim, would be tied to an already familiar holiday which Adam HaRishon himself instituted.
Wishing you a chanuka sameach!
Jameel @ The Muqata
Jameel, what you are saying and what Lurker are saying are not exactly the same.
ReplyDeleteYou are saying that Adam celebrated the fact that the days were getting longer, and this holy tradition was passed down through all of the great people like Noah, Shem, Ever, Avaraham, etc. etc. and was always known amongst the Hebrew/Jewish people until the time of the Hashmonaim came and they added on additional ideas related to the miracles that happened to them.
I don't know if there is any basis to that idea. Especially since the Gemara (which was written long after the events of Hanukkah) chooses to point to Roman festivals and not even mention a connection to Hanukkah. But, true or not, your idea is not kefira.
Now let me quote from Lurker:
"Don't get me wrong – I certainly don't think a self-respecting Jew ought to celebrate Christmas. But I wouldn't tell a Jew not to celebrate it on account of it's connection with Saturnalia. After all, Hanukah is clearly connected with it, too."
This is kefira.
The Rambam explains in Hilchot Avodat Kochavim, that all avoda zara started with holy, true ideas. Slowly these ideas became distorted into AZ.
Now, if a Jew comes along and tries to bring ideas of AZ into Judaism, he is violating God's prohibition against serving him according to the ways of the nations.
Therefore saying that Hanukkah is connected to Saturnalia is like saying that bowing before God in the Temple is connected to defecating before Baal Peor. If you want to say that they both originated with Adam that may be true but hardly noteworthy. And you certainly would not say not to criticize a Peor worshiping Jew because Jews also bow before God.
Maoz,
ReplyDeleteWelcome on board. Bookmark the blog or add it to your feed reader. I am just getting started.
In his recent post, The origins of Hanukkah, he tries to argue that Hanukkah originates in the Roman holiday Saturnalia.
ReplyDelete...
This is very faulty logic. Your argument goes something like this:
The Rabbi's in the Talmud were fools/liars/ideologues with their head buried in the sand. They thought that Hanukkah was established to celebrate the war of the Maccabees (an event that happened a few generations before their time) when it was really established to celebrate Saturnalia (something that was still going on during their time).
That is a complete misrepresentation of what I said. The idea is that Hanukah originated with a much older holiday, which began entirely innocently (and was even praiseworthy, according to the braita). It was only later adopted by pagans and associated by them with idolatry. As the Gemara says, "He [Adam] established them for the sake of heaven, but they [of later generations] established them for the sake of idolatry". To turn that into "Hanukkah originates in the Roman holiday Saturnalia", as you did, is not accurate.
This is a perfect example of how smart Jewish minds, that are able to split an atom, are able to come up with the most twisted and distorted logic to justify what their Yetzer Hara wants justified.
Firstly, I didn't "come up" with the idea that the Gemara in Avodah Zarah is referring to the early origin of Hanukah. Many others, far greater then me, have understood this gemara as meaning exactly this. Take a look, for example, at this shiur by R. Uri Cherki, who also reads this gemara as describing the origin of Hanukah. Is R. Cherki also using "the most twisted and distorted logic to justify what [his] Yetzer Hara wants justified"? How about this shiur, by R. Menachem Leibtag, who says the same thing? Is he trying to "justify his Yetzer Hara", too? Or how about this article on the same topic by Dr. Gavriel Cohen, lecturer in Tanakh at Bar Ilan? Are all of them "twisted and distorted"? Are they all "heretics"?
Furthermore what's so "twisted and distorted" about it? The Gemara talks about an 8-day-long holiday at the time of the Winter Solstice, that celebrates the restoration of light. One would have to be blind not to see the connection with Hanukah.
Yes, of course we celebrate the military victory of the Hashmonaim on Hanukah. Nobody is denying that. The point is that prior to the time of the Hashmonaim, it was already a holiday with seasonal/astronomical significance. (Also agricultural significance; see R. Cherki's shiur for details.) The military victory of the Hashmonaim added the historical significance.
Similar twisted thinking brings our government here in Israel to racially cleanse Jews from Gaza while sending food, money, fuel etc to terrorist in the same Gaza.
I am extremely offended by that idiotic analogy. For your information, I was forcefully opposed to the criminal expulsion of the Jews in Gush Katif. I fought it and campaigned against it. For you to compare the ideas in my post -- which are essentially the same idea as those of talmedei hakhamim like R. Cherki, R. Leibtag, and Dr. Cohen -- to the expulsion, is sheer lunacy. Sorry, but it's you, not I, who is now using "twisted and distorted logic".
Now let me quote from Lurker:
ReplyDelete"Don't get me wrong – I certainly don't think a self-respecting Jew ought to celebrate Christmas. But I wouldn't tell a Jew not to celebrate it on account of it's connection with Saturnalia. After all, Hanukah is clearly connected with it, too."
This is kefira.
No, it isn't kefira at all.
The Gemara tells us that Adam HaRishon originated the Winter Solstice festival that, generations later, was called Saturnalia by the Romans (who observed it through idolatry, as opposed to Adam). Futhermore, Hanukah was established as a holiday to be celebrated in concert with Adam's Winter Solstice festival. Thus, Hanukah and Saturnalia are both descendants of the same festival instituted by Adam.
That's not kefira, it's logic.
Yes, the Greeks and Romans celebrated their version of the festival with avodah zarah. But the Hashmonaim's version was celebrated with avodat Hashem.
Now, if a Jew comes along and tries to bring ideas of AZ into Judaism, he is violating God's prohibition against serving him according to the ways of the nations.
Did you even read my post? I never said that the Hashmonaim tried "to bring ideas of AZ into Judaism". I even suggested that "by appropriating a Greek holiday and turning it into a celebration of the Temple's rededication, the Hashmonaim were trying to express their victory over Hellenism".
Are you really incapable of understanding the difference between that and "bring[ing] ideas of AZ into Judaism"?
Lurker, I am glad that you clarified your post somewhat. I think that you are stepping back a bit from what you originally posted. In your original post you concluded:
ReplyDelete"Don't get me wrong – I certainly don't think a self-respecting Jew ought to celebrate Christmas. But I wouldn't tell a Jew not to celebrate it on account of it's connection with Saturnalia. After all, Hanukah is clearly connected with it, too."
In your original post you are saying that Christmas is to Saturnalia as Hanukkah is to Saturnalia. That is just wrong! Christmas is a wholesale adoption of the Pagan Saturnalia, with the Jesus motif thrown in for good measure.
Based on your (new?) position in this comment, Hanukkah has very little at all to do with Saturnalia except that they both originate in a much older, prehistoric holiday started by Adam.
In short the Prehistoric Adam Holiday begot two children, one holy Jewish holiday called Hanukkah and a second pagan one called Saturnalia. The pagan Saturnalia then gave birth to a new pagan holiday called Christmas. It is therefore a very good argument indeed to tell a Jew not to celebrate Christmas because it is pagan in origin (besides the obvious fact that it is not a Jewish holiday). Whereas Hanukkah has nothing more to do with Saturnalia than bowing in the Temple has to do with defecating before Baal Peor.
As for all of the Rabbis that you mentioned, I have not yet had time to listen to their shiurim. I may get around to it one day but it is not with them that I am arguing. Don't try to put a hechsher on your dangerous ideas by trying to associate them with some Rabbi's ideas.
Jehoshaphat: Lurker, I am glad that you clarified your post somewhat. I think that you are stepping back a bit from what you originally posted.
ReplyDelete*sigh*
I haven't stepped back from anything. You should read more carefully the first time.
Jehoshaphat: Based on your (new?) position in this comment, Hanukkah has very little at all to do with Saturnalia except that they both originate in a much older, prehistoric holiday started by Adam.
In the eyes of the Jews at the time of the Hashmonaim, that's a pretty significant connection -- given that, prior to Hanukah, that holiday was being practiced only in its pagan form.
Thus, it was a pretty gutsy move on the part of the Hashmonaim to adopt the holiday as their own, and to say, "We're going to appropriate this holiday, but replace the idolatrous content with Jewish content". I have little doubt that they must have met with a great deal of opposition to this. I'm sure there must have been people who condemned them saying, "You are bringing ideas of AZ into Judaism" (even though they were doing the opposite). I'm sure people must have told them that what they were doing was "kefira".
So I'd say that the connection is pretty significant.
Jehoshaphat: As for all of the Rabbis that you mentioned, I have not yet had time to listen to their shiurim. I may get around to it one day but it is not with them that I am arguing.
Don't be so sure, before you've heard/read what they have to say.
Jehoshaphat: Don't try to put a hechsher on your dangerous ideas by trying to associate them with some Rabbi's ideas.
Again, they're not "my" "dangerous ideas". Where do you think I got them from in the first place?